tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post6626931699270427931..comments2023-08-24T18:26:14.508-07:00Comments on Pragmatarianism: Libertarianism and the Free-rider ProblemXerographicahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14978832439622230018noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-5382036316774170732012-02-16T16:45:41.127-08:002012-02-16T16:45:41.127-08:00Xero
You are not accurate in your description of ...Xero<br /><br />You are not accurate in your description of anarcho-capitalists<br /><br />Concept of 'better' is personal.<br /><br />Certainly a situation where you profit from the proceeds of another man's thieving is a 'better' situation...FOR YOU...you receive an unearned gained with little or no personal risk.<br /><br />The free market provides goods WITHOUT COERCION or violence - it abhors these means to an end.<br /><br />Public sector MUST use violence to seize the goods of others so to redistribute them.<br /><br />It is this difference that is fundamental.<br /><br />All theft, including government theft via taxation, requires the initiation of violence on innocent people.<br /><br />The consequences of this violence degrades social cohesion - the victims of theft either (1) withdraw their goods or/and (2) eventually resist the thief - the former reduces economic prosperity and the latter creates an ever increasing escalation of violence until the murder trumps the thief and wholesale slaughter within society occurs - resulting is social collapse.<br /><br />You are stuck in measuring short-term outcomes - you are an "ends justifies the means" concept-holder.<br /><br />As long as the means of provisioning the goods for society are evil, it matters not one wit the outcome - it cannot be for good for long.<br /><br />Watch the means of provisioning - if such a provisioning is moral and devoid of violence and coercion, the ends will take care of themselves optimally.Black Flagnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-27023397253645442762012-02-13T00:54:49.470-08:002012-02-13T00:54:49.470-08:00As if you haven't already offered enough evide...As if you haven't already offered enough evidence that you're not familiar with <a href="http://pragmatarianism.blogspot.com/2010/11/libertarianism.html" rel="nofollow">libertarianism</a>. Black Flag is obviously not a libertarian...he's an anarcho-capitalist. Anarcho-capitalists want to abolish the government because they believe that A) the private sector can do everybody better than the public sector and/or B) taxes are theft.<br /><br />Churchill said that the best argument against democracy with a 5 minute conversation with the average voter. Good thing he wasn't talking about us...right?Xerographicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978832439622230018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-22552323784549804062012-02-12T06:38:01.576-08:002012-02-12T06:38:01.576-08:00All A, B and C compromises are correct and provide...All A, B and C compromises are correct and provide a great knowledge to my mind. Thanks for it.atlanta pediatrichttp://www.northsidepediatrics.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-68555625353810877082012-02-09T18:55:39.878-08:002012-02-09T18:55:39.878-08:00Lin
The position against Democracy is not merely ...Lin<br /><br />The position against Democracy is not merely an opinion - it is from a position of reasoning and logic of consequences<br /><br />Those that blindly adhere to it are the ones that hold the distortions and the ones that assign irrational "God" powers to it.<br />.<br />Churchill - who I share a grandmother with - (his grandmother, my great-great grandmother) was a murdering SOB, and indeed, he used the tyranny of democracy to toss the world into wars that murdered millions.<br /><br />He is no hero, and his opinion on worst form of government carries zero weight..Black Flagnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-89830737686868648742012-02-09T17:02:36.883-08:002012-02-09T17:02:36.883-08:00I didn't expect libertarians to come out in su...I didn't expect libertarians to come out in support of democracy, but I never expected to see such brazen opposition to it. Honesty is the best policy so "Cheers".<br /><br />And one more quote: "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Sir Winston ChurchillLinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-89550000345254439752012-02-09T15:24:25.355-08:002012-02-09T15:24:25.355-08:00Lin
You are correct.
Liberty and Democracy are op...Lin<br /><br />You are correct.<br />Liberty and Democracy are opposites - the tyranny of mob rule is still tyranny.<br /><br />Democracy is "The God that Failed" - simply because it marries diffuse responsibility "..hell, WE ALL voted for it..." with unlimited justification "...majority said it was ok!..."<br /><br />With no responsibility and no limits to justification, democracy will be the worse hell on earth for mankind.Black Flagnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-67003215440721170492012-02-09T10:17:19.632-08:002012-02-09T10:17:19.632-08:00My experience with libertarians and libertarianism...My experience with libertarians and libertarianism has left me to conclude that democracy is not on the radar. That's why I don't think there will ever be a reconciliation between liberalism and libertarianism.<br /><br />I'll close with a quote:<br /><br />"I'm tired of hearing it said that democracy doesn't work. Of course it doesn't work. We are supposed to work it." - Alexander WoolcottLinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-85079657694619159022012-02-08T15:32:23.332-08:002012-02-08T15:32:23.332-08:00Lin
" Again: do you share a conviction for de...Lin<br />" Again: do you share a conviction for democracy and concern for its corruption? If so, what is your solution?"<br /><br />Your position, Lin, is premised on legal theft.<br /><br />Yet, you are surprised that thieves are corrupt.<br /><br />You hunt for a solution to the corruption with the den of thieves, and believe it must exist there, your excuse - you haven't look hard enough or long enough.<br /><br />How you believe you can reconcile theft with freedom is beyond me.Black Flagnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-40840782298694267402012-02-08T15:31:50.963-08:002012-02-08T15:31:50.963-08:00So you're saying that pragmatarianism isn'...So you're saying that pragmatarianism isn't feasible because the government wouldn't allow people to choose which government organizations receive their taxes?Xerographicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978832439622230018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-23011265056888469292012-02-08T15:28:07.974-08:002012-02-08T15:28:07.974-08:00Yes, because they would NEVER be able to "unt...Yes, because they would NEVER be able to "untax" or allocate their taxes in the face of a tyranny.<br /><br />You have your argument sideways.<br /><br />For any tax relief of any sort, you must FIRST dispense with government tyranny.<br /><br />Once you dispense with government tyranny, wars of aggression are massively unlikely by that government.<br /><br />Thus, it has nothing to do with taxes at allBlack Flagnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-83802369789024337542012-02-08T11:28:41.115-08:002012-02-08T11:28:41.115-08:00If German taxpayers had been allowed to directly a...If German taxpayers had been allowed to directly allocate their taxes...would <a href="http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2012/02/john-tomasis-free-market-fairness/#comment-433211194" rel="nofollow">WWII still have occurred</a>?Xerographicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978832439622230018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-55313713869457573702012-02-08T10:33:14.229-08:002012-02-08T10:33:14.229-08:00No...you're not at all familiar with libertari...No...you're not at all familiar with libertarianism. I acknowledged the free-rider problem...I didn't argue for lower taxes...and I didn't argue for getting rid of any government organizations. That you don't understand how unlibertarian these concessions are clearly indicates that you are not at all familiar with libertarianism. <br /><br />The point is...it's not much of a compromise if one side makes all the concessions.Xerographicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978832439622230018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-5137642485248196192012-02-08T10:10:40.843-08:002012-02-08T10:10:40.843-08:00I'm familiar enough with libertarianism not to...I'm familiar enough with libertarianism not to have expected accord on this subject. I saw a little opening there in your blog, but it was chimeral.<br /><br />Thanks for hosting the discussion.Linnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-43987793742404319822012-02-08T09:47:13.335-08:002012-02-08T09:47:13.335-08:00Xero,
Your system demands this:
1) Taxation exist...Xero,<br />Your system demands this:<br /><br />1) Taxation exists to fund government and NEVER to manipulate the people economically.<br /><br />2) The choice to select an organization demands that some selection must be made, that is, there is no such thing as 'no thanks' - therefore, false dichotomies are created ... that is, a choice of one thing.<br /><br />3) Tax is not voluntary so you claiming that people voluntarily provide taxation is a contradiction.<br /><br /><br />The problem you cannot overcome:<br />You position is rooted in massive contradictions - which makes it fundamentally no different then the current paradigms that are equally rooted in massive contradictions.Black Flagnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-21196106643764824492012-02-08T08:37:40.375-08:002012-02-08T08:37:40.375-08:00My conviction is that people should have the right...My conviction is that people should have the right to try and protect their interests. The problem is...it seems like my conviction is what you consider to be corruption. <br /><br />In my opinion...the point of voting is to determine which side cares the most. How do I know how much you care about corruption? Can you just tell me on a scale from 1 to 10 how much you care about corruption? Would that be an accurate reflection of the truth? Does merely showing up at the voting booth reveal how much you care about an issue?<br /><br />The only way I can objectively discern how much you really care about corruption is by observing whether you put your money/time where your mouth is. <br /><br />How much of your time/money do you spend lobbying against corruption? All the time/money you spend lobbying against corruption could have been spent on your family, on your hobbies, on your favorite charities, on bills...on so many other things that you also value. That you were willing to forgo all those other things is the true indication of how much you care about corruption.<br /><br />This is, of course, the opportunity concept which, if you look in my keyword section, is a major focus of my blog.<br /><br />So you say you have a conviction for democracy...yet you actively seek to undermine the very point of democracy: accurately determining which side of an issue cares the most. Because it surely wouldn't make any sense for the side that cares less to win.<br /><br />My solution, which I've already mentioned, is to allow people to try and protect their interests even more. How so? By allowing them to directly allocate their taxes. This would provide us a true reflection of our society's values, interests and concerns. <br /><br />Your concern is that people don't all have the same amount of time/money to spend trying to protect their interests. The thing is...your concern is your interest. Your interest is the welfare of others. My interest is the environment...which is also the welfare of others. Other people's interest is national defense...which is also the welfare of others. <br /><br />The common ground is that we're all interested in the welfare of others...but each in our own different way.Xerographicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978832439622230018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-50044335448631231732012-02-07T19:48:32.766-08:002012-02-07T19:48:32.766-08:00What I want is to see where a liberal and a libert...What I want is to see where a liberal and a libertarian can find common ground. Thus far your answer is elusive. Again: do you share a conviction for democracy and concern for its corruption? If so, what is your solution?Linnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-32428522438439422442012-02-07T17:59:37.515-08:002012-02-07T17:59:37.515-08:00Ok, so you want to limit campaign contributions. ...Ok, so you want to limit campaign contributions. But...would you also want to limit how many hours people can volunteer for campaigns?Xerographicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978832439622230018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-56641200957462654472012-02-07T16:24:21.294-08:002012-02-07T16:24:21.294-08:00Maybe so. To me there's never been any doubt ...Maybe so. To me there's never been any doubt about the purpose of democracy: the people rule themselves. The problem I related is the usurpation of democratic outcomes under a corrupt system whereby the rich can effectively buy politicians, producing laws, policies, and outcomes that favor themselves, contrary to the greater good.<br /><br />You have still not addressed how libertarianism either recognizes or proposes to address this problem, leading me to believe you don't consider it a problem, leaving me to conclude that there is no common ground by which we could unite for tax reform.<br /><br />Is there something else?Lin Brinkleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-27328185410766483522012-02-07T15:49:18.096-08:002012-02-07T15:49:18.096-08:00Well...I'm trying to narrow down if you care m...Well...I'm trying to narrow down if you care more about fairness/equality or outcomes. I'm trying to figure out why I advocate for <a href="http://pragmatarianism.blogspot.com/2011/10/childrens-suffrage.html" rel="nofollow">children's suffrage</a>...yet you seem completely ambivalent about the subject.<br /><br />Did we let women vote because we were concerned with outcomes? Given that the outcome was overwhelming negative...prohibition...was that a proper justification for revoking their right to vote?<br /><br />Your continued patience in this matter is appreciated. I feel like we're making progress in terms of considering the overall purpose of democracy.Xerographicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978832439622230018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-47434106858749682742012-02-07T15:35:42.658-08:002012-02-07T15:35:42.658-08:00Possibly, but I don't think it would change an...Possibly, but I don't think it would change any outcomes. What's your point?Lin Brinkleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-4447606541668454202012-02-07T15:24:43.507-08:002012-02-07T15:24:43.507-08:00My proposal isn't to lower the age restriction...My proposal isn't to lower the age restriction...it's to completely eliminate it. <br /><br />Do you think if we did so that this would give an unfair advantage to families with more kids?Xerographicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978832439622230018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-69276266338255096012012-02-07T14:51:15.811-08:002012-02-07T14:51:15.811-08:00I don't have an answer for you. Honestly, I&#...I don't have an answer for you. Honestly, I'm okay with keeping the age at 18, but, as I said, I wouldn't object to your proposal to lower it. <br /><br />Pick your number (I don't think it will change any outcomes).Lin Brinkleyhttp://www.bizlawlawyers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-86571082385431045762012-02-07T14:18:43.613-08:002012-02-07T14:18:43.613-08:00So what's the youngest age you believe that ki...So what's the youngest age you believe that kids should be allowed to vote? And how do you justify that age?<br /><br />Right...I understand that your concern is how money subverts democracy...but we first need to be on the same page in terms of what exactly is being subverted.<br /><br />Your e-mail suggestion is reasonable...but I prefer if others can benefit from our discussion as well. It's more efficient if I don't have to repeat this same discussion with every liberal that comes along.Xerographicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978832439622230018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-35489076874257942922012-02-07T14:07:11.452-08:002012-02-07T14:07:11.452-08:00Ok, I'll play.
No, but I would certainly be o...Ok, I'll play.<br /><br />No, but I would certainly be open to the notion of allowing people under 18 to vote so I could accept your proposal with some modifications (I don't think 5 year olds should be allowed to vote).<br /><br />Please bear in mind that my viewpoint and thus my concern centers around the way money subverts democracy.<br /><br />Also, I'd suggest we take this conversation to email for the sake of efficiency.Lin Brinkleyhttp://www.bizlawlawyers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4824790768118172625.post-45939141447510745202012-02-07T13:55:07.906-08:002012-02-07T13:55:07.906-08:00Ok...please bear with me. Let's try and flesh...Ok...please bear with me. Let's try and flesh out our respective views on democracy. Do you believe that children of any age should be allowed to vote? The only restrictions to voting would be 1. the voter cannot be accompanied in the voting booth and 2. the voter must be a resident.Xerographicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978832439622230018noreply@blogger.com